Interestingly, Johannes is a massive wrestling fan, and has a lot of opinions to share on wrestling, so I caught up with the man himself to chat about all things WWE, AEW, how he discovered wrestling being from Sweden, and which wrestler could portray his character in the ring among other things!
Hi, Johannes. Thanks for joining me. First of all, let’s go back to the start. I know Sweden isn’t exactly a hotbed for professional wrestling - how did you first become a fan?
It did go on TV back in the early ’90s with the commentary was done by a Swedish champion weightlifter and a total super mega mark. They were commentating on it, completely breaking kayfabe. They thought they were having fun with it. The weightlifter was always rooting for people like Bastion Booger and stuff.
They started with WWF programming and I guess this was in line with the New Generation era of it ‘cause the first guy who became ‘my guy’ was Adam Bomb.
They must have just followed Hulk Hogan around because, when I was more conscious of what I was watching, I remember Hogan-Vader being on the pay-per-views which they were showing long after [they happened].
It was one of the first things I was really invested in, so I guess they followed Hulk Hogan into WCW, then eventually we got a satellite receiver. My mum is German, so we had German channels and we got Cartoon Network, which switched over to TNT at 8-9 in the evening and, at that point, on Fridays, they would show Monday’s Nitro.
At this point, at around nine or ten years old, I was a WCW guy until it started to really, really, really suck in 1999 or something. Then I found a German sports channel that was showing SmackDown and switched over to that.
And I know in Sweden, WWE RAW and SmackDown would have been starting on TV at 2 am. Did you stay up to try catch it live?
No, I never got to really watch wrestling live until the last few years. Through touring, I’ve got to attend live RAW events in Europe but I still watch it on my own schedule.
NEXT: Johannes speaks about the similarities between music and wrestling
COMING UP: Johannes speaks about which WWE Superstar could be him in the ring
I think your onstage persona would be an incredible character in wrestling, just because of the full carnival thing and the way you’ve perfected all of your movements.
Was that inspired by any wrestlers or do you think wrestling in general inspired your character?
It actually comes a lot from wrestling in multiple stages. I think it started as a little kid. On our debut album, we all have to do our own little ’thank you’ lists in the booklet, and one of the people I thanked was Hulk Hogan. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek but also I think the first two people when I was a little kid that triggered that impulse of wanting to do something show-oriented at all was Michael Jackson and Hulk Hogan. To do something in front of an audience and doing something over the top in front of an audience, I’m sure that seed was planted due to professional wrestling.
Then, in the latter years, a lot about stage performing, a lot of it I have learned from professional wrestling and the fact that nowadays the whole internet is full of shoot interviews. Just because of the nature of how these masters of performing arts end up talking about it, looking back at their careers - it’s completely different than what you would get from musicians that I admire and musicians that I tried to emulate or learn from.
Like Rob Halford, I haven’t seen an interview where he really, really breaks apart what he does on stage the way I’ve seen with, I don’t know, Jake Roberts or Al Snow, or whoever.
Therefore, just in terms of seeing that there are more similarities than differences between wrestling and music, I have more opportunities to learn from professional wrestling. I also, just the other day, got to do this little thing for German television as we played at Wacken Festival. They needed someone in a band to stand and chitchat with the founder of the festival, and just talk about Wacken, answer some questions, and when I spoke about it to my wife afterwards, I said, “Yeah, I cut a promo.”
Talking to press, being on stage, being a singer in a band, especially being a frontman, it’s promos. Ring psychology and stage psychology are very similar. You have the art form, you have your songs to lean back on but how you perform it and the physical performance of it is it is where you call spot on the fly, as you would say.
You have a general idea of what you want to say and how you want to perform it, but then you have the Ric Flair thing of just listening to the audience and going with them, and just letting yourself be immersed in that moment. Just like how the greatest wrestling is where it becomes, in that moment, real. The story becomes the reality and the beautiful thing is it becomes a super-reality because the emotions are magnified - that is how I want to reconnect with our songs once on stage.
The things you say in between the songs, there are all these tiny, microscopic differences, just a little pause or something that depends on engagement with the audience. That is wiggle room for improvisation. That is me saying, “Irish whip me into the corner, I’ll duck.”
Half of what you do is set in stone, like a comeback, a big boot, Leg Drop, 1-2-3 and Hulk Hogan wins - that is set in stone - but the journey there is very fluid and very much a living, breathing part of what you do and, in that sense, I think rock and metal concerts have a strong connection. If you go watch a symphony orchestra, of course that is different. It becomes something else. But in our little corner of the big world of performing arts, I see a lot of similarities.
NEXT: Johannes speaks about Bray Wyatt’s very familiar mask
COMING UP: Johannes discusses which 2019 match was his favorite match in a long time
I asked about your influences, but I think one or two wrestlers may have actually taken influence from yourself. When Chris Jericho left WWE and debuted in NJPW, he looked a little bit like a certain Johannes Eckerström…
You both have similarities in that you’re both juggling being in a band with a podcast [Johannes hosts Metal Break] - how difficult is it to do all of that and keep up with stuff like wrestling?
It is super hard. That being said, both with the wrestling and podcast, by design, that’s something that me and my wife enjoy doing together and that is extra clear with the podcast, of course. That is due to our shared attachments and interests.
It’s nice to have a project with your spouse and since you’re in an apartment, we don’t have a balcony to renovate every second year. In part, it is rooted in that so, therefore, you make time because it shared time - and then we share the interest in wrestling so we watch that together, too.
You mentioned about [me influencing] Chris Jericho… Did you see Bray Wyatt’s new mask? The shape of the black eyes and that red outline. That red outline!
I’m a fan, I just found it eerily similar, but he didn’t answer my tweet about it.
What do you think of AEW?
Yeah, I watched all of Double or Nothing, I watched parts of Fight for the Fallen and there was one in between that I missed out completely. I’ve been keeping up with it, though, I read about the nasty chair shot and the apology afterwards, and all that.
But I enjoyed it. I will join the choir who said that the Rhodes brothers’ match against each other was probably the best match I’ve seen in years, and that it can still be done and when it’s done right, it matters.
If you look back, we miss psychology, we miss characters. We miss wrestling feeling like sports events. We miss all of those things. Then just the other day now, the WWE Network has been updated and I’m like, “Oh, I can search for things. I can get some Harley Race matches on here.”
I watched him versus Kerry Von Erich and, yeah, all those things are there and it really matters but it hasn’t aged super well. You couldn’t show that match to someone who has just discovered wrestling now - but all of the things that were there can be put any more modern setting and a more modern tempo, but still have the moves matter and the characters matter and all of that.
That match [Cody vs Dustin] just gives you something else completely, and I’ve been a huge fan of Chris Jericho since his WCW days, and the man of 1,004 holds or whatever it was.
I’ve got to know him a little bit in the later years and he’s there, and he just gets it. I just look forward to seeing, on a weekly basis, if they can make the stories be indirect relationship to it being seen as a sport, and if they can make it work.
I think we’ll be in for a hell of a ride. Since I was that WCW kid, in the most formative years of my childhood, to that that I like to watch the competition with WWE just feels right.
One of the founders, one of the key people there is Cody Rhodes. With Dusty in WCW, it feels like there is a little bridging over two timelines that makes it connect to where I feel my wrestling fan roots are at.
NEXT: Johannes speaks about which wrestlers could use his ‘gimmick’ in WWE
COMING UP: Johannes discusses which 2019 match was his favorite match in a long time
Right, so WWE come calling. Vince McMahon says, “Johannes, I love your character in Avatar. I want to use it, but you get to choose who takes it.” What’s your response?
Oh, that’s a good question. Now, looking back, the only example in history of this happening is the KISS Demon so maybe I would run in the opposite direction if that came up.
With that being said, let’s have fun with it. Hmm…
Now I’m trying to think of who is out there and who would do it. It would be terrible on Jeff Hardy. He would turn me into Willow!
The weirdest thing is… This goes in a circle again about learning from wrestling. The most successful gimmicks in professional wrestling has always been those that find a way to add themselves up to 11 - they are themselves magnified and cranked up to 11. I guess with the exception of the Undertaker.
The Steve Austins and The Rocks, and the Ric Flairs, and all those, they do that. So it’s a very much… I am the way I am. I don’t feel I play a character, which is why it works. So the first thing going through my mind for the metal dudes would be Aleister Black, would that work? It’s a very different energy that he has, so maybe not. And then on a more superficial level, it would be fun to see the Irish lad, Finn Balor.
Superficially, it would be cool if there would be a way to integrate and just exaggerate my little fill-in, color-by-the-numbers eyes thing and just turn that into one of his demonic things.
I like how you wanted to stay away from the Demon and we then land at someone who goes by the name ’the Demon’.
Yes! I don’t know, in order to be… You know who suddenly came into my mind for whatever reason? For me, this would be very different. Ember Moon!
I don’t know why. It just occurred to me now. She has that something occult, witchcrafty. She’s a bit supernatural in what she does, but she also does it with a smile. There is a smile that manages to be both positive, there is a joy there and it’s sinister. Yeah, Ember Moon, I guess!
If you could give one wrestler any Avatar song as their theme, who would you choose and which song?
We talked years ago when Black Waltz came out as, when we started touring the US, we ended up surrounded by more people with an interest in wrestling. The issue is that I was daydreaming about this with wrestlers I grew up with but they’re themes are iconic.
For the sake of a pun, I would have Kane use Paint Me Red on purely a song title level - but you cannot mess with those old ones because you do not change his or Steve Austin’s theme song or whoever from back then.
Nowadays, let’s think here because many are c**p… My wife’s favorite is Seth Rollins. His song is very cute but maybe a little bit too radio-friendly. Shouldn’t he use Hail The Apocalypse instead?
That’s in the context of WWE. Right now, over the summer, I have watched less than I do during the fall and spring, and all that just because of other commitments.
Actually what I watch the most now is, I keep recycling the OSW Review. I f***ing love those, they are so good.
Right now, I’m very excited for fall for AEW starting with their TV show and all that, and I have a feeling they might need more help with music than they do in WWE.
I forget what the current guys are called [CFO$] but Jim Johnston, because of where he was and when, and what he’s done, he has become a legend - but not all of his songs were created equal.
NEXT: Johannes speaks about his favorite wrestlers
COMING UP: Johannes discusses what’s next for Avatar
Three wrestlers who were your favorite wrestlers growing up, and three are your favorite wrestlers right now - go!
My biggest hero of mine in professional wrestling is Sting. My heart was broken when Hulk Hogan betrayed him, I was destroyed. Sting will always be at number one. Now I put on long coats and paint my face for a living!
Then I guess it must be Ric Flair. I was a Hulkamaniac and, in hindsight, it is more Sting for me but Ric Flair was the one he was feuding with when I was getting into it.
You have the discussion of who was the biggest draw? How do we calculate it? From Gorgeous George to whatever, Steve Austin and who was the actual biggest draw?
I think if you add in influence on other wrestlers and who did you influence that ended up drawing? I guess that puts Ric Flair at number one.
It’s just like how some bands are bigger than their album sales suggest. You have Black Sabbath, who were a huge band and have a huge support, then I feel like Joy Division is a band that didn’t have that many people buying their albums back in the day but those who did all started bands.
Ric Flair is bigger than that but he must be number one. Sting, Flair, and…It has to be a WWE guy, so I will say The Undertaker.
Modern wrestlers - because of that match specifically, Dustin Rhodes. It’s weird as he’s both an old and current guy but I didn’t watch him back then, so because of that match [with Cody] he goes in my current favorite wrestlers. I know there’s a whole world out there that I can’t keep track of but it has to be someone from WWE. When he gets to do things, I really, really enjoy Finn Balor. I really do. I’ll put him there.
And then… So I live your in Helsinki and we get to see live events here, I don’t remember who she faced but the best match of the evening was Charlotte Flair. I’ll put her there.
Before WrestleMania, because of the character build and what was going on, I could have picked Becky for everything - but now, it’s one of those real things that happened where we finally got what we wanted.
It’s so hard for a babyface to be on top when they’re not chasing anything. Just taking a step back and thinking about the actual wrestling going on, Charlotte Flair is just… It’s ridiculous how good she is.
Yeah, I think Charlotte is the greatest female wrestler of all time, and I hate putting gender into it so I’m going to say I think she will probably be up there eventually with the greatest of all time.
Yeah, I think she is that now and, like you say, it’s… We are still, just like in metal music, right now in a paradigms shift where we will soon stop saying ‘female wrestlers’ as opposed to wrestlers.
I think that is something where we are in a gradual change. We are, right now, in the middle of it. We say it and we excuse ourselves and it’s our learning curve - which the same happens with female-fronted metal bands or something which we have to stop saying.
You have a band like Jinjer being one of the best current balance in the f***ing universe. It’s a band, it doesn’t matter if it’s female-fronted or male-fronted.
I think Charlotte is probably one of the greatest wrestlers, now and of all time. Two Flairs on the list, how about that?
NEXT: Johannes discusses what’s next for Avatar
Finally, you’re just about to head back on the road with Avatar. For me, one of the most must-see shows on the planet right now is a live Avatar concert - what can we expect next?
Well, we have a few festivals this weekend and next weekend. We have six more shows to go and then, as far as Europe is concerned, summer is officially over for Avatar. Then we’re heading out for a month with BABYMETAL and some headliners in between across North America.
After that, I’ll put it like this - Avatar Country came out in January 2018 and what usually happens is, once you have the final mix and master in your hand, you go, “Oh, that felt good. Okay, next!”
People are really working, doing their own thing and we’re not doing it as a collective effort in the beginning of it. About one year into the cycle is when we start to gather our forces together and show each other our ideas, steal each other’s songs and become this songwriting collective.
Now it’s been 18 or 19 months since the album came out so, if you do the math, there’s quite a bit going on behind the scenes with Avatar. In terms of what to expect, I don’t want to give too much away especially because I realize that whatever I say might change a lot as that is the nature of the process.
What we do know is we never meant to do two concept albums in a row, it’s just something that’s only had to be done, that we felt inclined to do. Now it’s a very conscious choice to step away from that and Avatar Country - and Feathers & Flesh was such a tragedy of an album story-wise.
It was something very cool and very interesting for us to do an Avatar Country where it was essentially a comedy, and that was amazing. It’s an album about our glorious King, Avatar Country, flags and positivity - like a love letter to heavy metal. That would not have worked unless the fans but in to the idea and they really did.
In the context of this interview, it makes sense to say you have the parallel of it being like a pro wrestling event. People really suspended their disbelief and everything became 1,000 times better than we could have ever imagined. We really had fun with the people there. Everyone wanted to be a part of that trip.
Now that’s said and done, and we have always promised ourselves and the people around us that we would always work hard to change and find a new challenge, find a way to write songs we have not written yet and hopefully you have not heard yet. That is always the first thing at the very top of the list when we are doing things artistically.
When paying tribute to the metal we love and the metal band we think Avatar is and should be, it’s all about trying to push it forward in one way or another, one direction or another and it’s pretty open with Avatar what the direction is. Right now, because of the fun, because of the comedy because of all of that, it feels very good to be a bit more serious, to say the least.
Now, I always end with my most controversial question. You don’t need to answer it if you don’t want, but I’m going to ask it anyway - The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin?
Hmm, The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin. When Steve Austin was the hottest, I was watching WCW. I switched over to that German sports channel and he was away, and The Rock was on top. Considering what I was following, it would have to be The Rock.
In reality, I guess it’s neither. It’s Stunning Steve Austin with that crazy cool stable of Arn Anderson - so yeah, Stunning Steve Austin!
Thank you so much to Johannes Eckerström for chatting with me. You can check out Avatar here, or follow Johannes on Twitter here.
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